Dirt Nap City - History's Most Interesting Dead People
Dirt Nap City is the podcast about history's most interesting dead people. In each episode, Alex and Kelly dive into the life of a famous person that you have heard of, but probably don't know much about. Our stories are about actors, entrepreneurs, politicians, musicians, inventors, explorers and more! We also cover things that used to be popular but have fallen out of favor. Things like pet rocks, drive in theaters, Jolt Cola, and many other trends of yesterday make up our "dead ends". But whether we are talking about interesting historical figures or past trends, the show is funny, light-hearted, entertaining, informative and educational. You will definitely learn something new and probably have some laughs along the way. Everyone will eventually move to Dirt Nap City, so why not go ahead and meet the neighbors?
If you love hearing stories from Dirt Nap City, please consider supporting us on Patreon. Here's the link: https://www.patreon.com/DirtNapCityPodcast
If you have comments about the show or suggestions on who we should cover, please email us at not@dirtnapcity.com - we really appreciate you listening!
Dirt Nap City - History's Most Interesting Dead People
De Plane, De Fame, De Pain - How Herve Villechaize Struggled to Find His Place in Hollywood
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In this episode, we pull back the velvet curtain on the surreal life and tragic brilliance of Hervé Villechaize, the man who became an overnight cultural phenomenon as the enigmatic "Tattoo" on Fantasy Island. From Paris to the height of 1970s Hollywood, Hervé’s journey was defined by a fierce refusal to be sidelined by his size and a relentless pursuit of artistic respect.
We begin by exploring his early years as a gifted painter in France—the youngest ever to exhibit at the Museum of Paris—before he traded his brushes for the silver screen. While many remember him for his diminutive stature, we dive into his breakthrough role in the Bond classic The Man with the Golden Gun, which proved he possessed a magnetic, dangerous screen presence that could rival any leading man.
The heart of the episode centers on the Fantasy Island era and the origin of the world-famous catchphrase, "De plane! De plane!" We examine how those four words transformed him into a household name but also became a gilded cage. We go deep into the 1983 contract dispute with ABC that changed everything. At the peak of the show’s success, Hervé demanded salary parity with co-star Ricardo Montalbán, arguing that his contribution was equally vital to the show’s identity. We discuss the fallout: the network’s refusal to budge, his subsequent firing, and the devastating impact of being replaced on a series he helped build.
The discussion doesn’t shy away from the darker chapters—the personal demons, the physical pain caused by his condition, and the "difficult" reputation that followed him after his exit from the limelight. However, we also celebrate his legacy as a pioneer. Hervé Villechaize was one of the first actors with dwarfism to demand the status of a "leading man" rather than a mere novelty.
Join us as we re-examine the life of a man who was much more than a sidekick. We paint a portrait of a complex artist who fought for his worth in an industry that often struggled to see past his silhouette. It is a story of soaring fame, principled rebellion, and the heavy price of standing one’s ground in the Hollywood machine.
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Dirt Nap City is the podcast about the most interesting dead people in history.
Subscribe and listen to learn about people you've heard of, but don't know much about.
Someday we'll all live in Dirt Nap City, so you should probably go ahead and meet the neighbors!
Good morning Alex. How you doing? Hey Kelly, what's going on, man? Happy Thursday morning to you.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, it's been a week. It's been a week. Um, been quite a week, actually. We had a nice little cool snap that was kind of nice, and now it looks like it's gonna rain for a few days. Uh, and I always seem to talk about the weather at the beginning of these episodes. Why do I do that? Am I just old?
SPEAKER_03I don't know, but you know, people can listen to this anytime. People could be listening to this in the wintertime, in the summertime. True. They could be listening to this in the 2030s. I hope so. I hope so. Back catalog. It's um these episodes are what you call evergreen, right? Every time.
SPEAKER_02Well, I I I guess maybe talking about the weather is a little bit nostalgic, um, a little bit of history because maybe there isn't any rain in 2030. Like it doesn't exist anymore and it's a dead end. You know, at least in Texas.
SPEAKER_03Wouldn't that be terrible? Um does your person today have anything to do with the weather?
SPEAKER_02Oh, um no, no, not really. Not really. That's Willard Scott. Uh that's a that would be a great one. But before we go any further, I gotta give a shout out to two new Patreon supporters. We've got uh Christy and Julie, both from uh, well, Julie's in DC, and Christy is in upstate New York, and they jumped on the Patreon supporter train, and you know it's starting to get momentum. We're starting to see some momentum here.
SPEAKER_03Hey Christy, hey Julie. Hey, did we get them a car? Did they give that much?
SPEAKER_02They they both have stickers already, and uh, I'll see them this summer, and they'll both get t-shirts.
SPEAKER_03So maybe they don't know about the car, maybe they didn't listen to that episode. So put it out there. Let's put it out there for them. Yeah, tell them. $160,000. Get you. Um we have different levels. So you can get a sticker, you can get a t-shirt, you can get a is there a level what's jumps right? No, there's nothing in the middle. It's sticker. Well, there was the level where we would come out and if you supplied a chair, we would uh do a live show.
SPEAKER_02Maybe we should have an orange Julius level too. So if if you if you give at say $50 a month, uh Alex will next time he sees you, now he has to see you, you have to be in the same place, but he will make you a custom Orange Julius.
SPEAKER_03You have to supply the ingredients though. I'm not gonna I'm not gonna tell you what they are. It's like you might as well make your own at that point, then, right? No, if you all you have is like sauerkraut and ice cream and tomatoes, I'll have to figure out a way to make orange Julius out of that. It's more like purple pucus. That's my problem, but you can supply whatever ingredients you want, and I'll make an orange Julius out of it. What was that show? This is like um Iron Chef, right?
SPEAKER_02Is that like yeah, it's a takeoff of that. Well, I want to talk today about a guy that uh a man, by the way. Um, he was born in April of 1943 in Paris. So I think World War II was still going on at that time in Paris, wasn't it? Um, you know, 1942, yeah. 1943.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, for sure.
SPEAKER_02Uh he died in 1993 at the age of 50 in Hollywood, California. And uh died pretty tragically, actually, but we'll get into that a little later. And by the way, Dirtnap City is not a show about tragedy, it's a it's a celebration of life, right? It's it truly is about that. Um he became known as an actor, but before he was an actor, he was actually a very gifted painter. Was he known for painting? No, no, that was something I didn't know about him. Um, he did he got into art school at the age of 16 in France, which was a big deal. Um, he sold some paintings at that age, and he also was one of the youngest people, French people, to be exhibited in a French um museum, which you know, if you think about that, that's like a that's a level above a US museum, you know, or a French actor.
SPEAKER_03Yes, it died tragically in the 1990s. But he died in America, so he was like in American films. Yep. Um last time it was a what? He was also a painter, as I mentioned. But no, but I wouldn't have known that. No, probably not.
SPEAKER_02You want to know his breakout role that that might help um he uh he was a Bond villain a in 1977, 78, he was in a James Bond film and played a villain. Hmm. Now, while you're mulling this over, I'm I've got a little audio clip I'm gonna play for you, and it's not gonna be super obvious until the end, but the sooner you can guess, the better, because this this might help.
SPEAKER_03So that's the fantasy villain theme. Good good ear. Good ear. That's right, that's the one. He's French. Yes. I did not know Hervé Villages was French.
SPEAKER_02Yes, uh born in France, but um that that was that was the accent you were getting. It wasn't um might have might not have been what you thought it was, but those two words deplain, deplain, became a cultural phenomenon. Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_03I did not know he was French.
SPEAKER_02I thought he was from South America. Nope, nope, he was French. Um, he actually was born Hervé Jean-Pierre Villaches, and he was not born into poverty or anything tragic. As a matter of fact, his father was a surgeon and his mother was a socialite. And get this, this is this is a total tie-in to other dirt knap cities. While Herve never drove an ambulance, his mother drove an ambulance during World War II. Can you believe that?
SPEAKER_03Can you explain that? Can you explain that for people that might not have listened to the whole catalog?
SPEAKER_02There are a lot of episodes, especially with people from the early 1900s. I think it was more of a World War I thing, but a lot of the people that we've covered um were ambulance drivers during World War I or World War II for some reason.
SPEAKER_03Most of the veterans that we've covered were not in combat, but they drove ambulances. Except for Sparky, who who uh or did Sparky drive an ambulance? I think he might have. And then the other thing is a lot of them go into the military when they're like 15. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02They were they were age. They were brave back then. I gotta give I gotta give the greatest generation some props.
SPEAKER_03So Irve Village's mother drove an ambulance in World War II to two, right before he was born.
SPEAKER_02Yep, yep. Or maybe while he was being born, you know. I mean, it was an ambulance, so they had they had the equipment, you know.
SPEAKER_03Um honestly didn't know he was in anything other than Fantasy Island. Oh, yeah. He just kind of appeared and then he disappeared. He has a deep catalog, he has a deep catalog. I didn't even know he was interesting.
SPEAKER_02I look forward to this. He is well, you know, one of the most uh recognizable things about him was he had an endocrine, endocrine endocrine or endocrine related growth disorder. Do you know which one it is?
SPEAKER_03Um endocrine endocrine British, I think you say endocrine.
SPEAKER_02Okay, well, I'm gonna say endocrine because I think British always a bit smarter. Uh he was only three feet ten inches tall, and unfortunately, yeah, unfortunately, his father actually sort of tortured him as a child with with good intentions, but he his father put him through these, his father was a surgeon, and his father put him through some medical experiments to see if he could cure quote unquote Herve from you know being a dwarf and he uh or a little person. He was bullied as a child, he had these harsh treatments that were pretty traumatic, and it really kind of shaped his personality a little bit later in life. He he had insecurity, a lot of anger. Um, he needed recognition, you know, because I think his parents were already high up on the social ladder, and and you know, he he might have been um uh I don't know, considered, I think for some people, maybe a bit of a uh black sheep or an embarrassment to them or something like that. Then and that gave him a lot of vulnerability at a young age. Um, but he found refuge in painting and he had a natural gift for it. Now, his paintings, like I said, were some of the uh he was one of the youngest people to exhibit in the Museum of Paris. He painted a lot of landscapes, impressionistic stuff. If you saw some of his paintings, if you Google it, you'll see, I mean, they look like classical paintings from that era, right? They're they're you know coastlines and harbors and towns, and they're all oil on canvas. Well, that got him a little bit of uh recognition, but he he wasn't happy with that. And so in 1964, he moved to New York, Greenwich Village at the age of 21. And can you imagine Greenwich? I know, can you imagine that in the 60s? Oh man, man, that would have just been.
SPEAKER_03I mean, that's basically that's Bob Dylan, yep. Um, Andy Warhol. Oh, yeah, all that stuff is going on around there.
SPEAKER_02It was um, you know, theaters and artists and avant-garde and music and all that stuff was going in. He didn't even really know English when he moved there, and he learned it by watching American television. You hear that a lot, right? That's that's a kind of recurring story about people learning English through watching television.
SPEAKER_03But I think it's easier now with subtitles than it would have been before subtitles.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02I guess before you just had to have context, right? Mm-hmm. You know, it was kind of like, oh, I see what that person's doing. I understand what this means. Well, he lived in uh New York for a couple of years. He was doing odd jobs. Um, he did a little bit of photography and art. He was in some theater, live theater, and even had some small film roles. I mean, you know, if you think about like Andy Warhol and the way he made films back then, you know, he was hiring all kinds of people just to be just to be in the films. They didn't have a plot, they didn't have to act, it was just, you know, hey, let's as you as you called it, gonzo filming.
SPEAKER_03Um but but back then, unlike now with a guy like Peter Dinklage, who really tries to stay away from roles that acts that are just for little people. Yes, yes, and we're gonna talk about that. Back then, that's all you could get was that's right role, you know, those kind of roles. That's a hundred percent right.
SPEAKER_02Um, well, you know, he he did struggle financially. I I don't know what his situation with his parents was.
SPEAKER_01You know, if you move to America, we're not gonna support you. You do it on a French accent. Yeah, if you move to America, you will not give you support. We will no longer give you these treatments, and your mother will not drive you to the hospital in an ambulance.
SPEAKER_02That's not really French, but um lived in his car for a while. I mean, kind of kind of hit, you know, financially hit hit rock bottom living in his car. Um, but then the big breakout, 1974. Do you know what that was? I I think I mentioned it in the clues. You did? He was a Bond villain. Oh, right, right, right, right, right. He he played the role of knick-knack in The Man with the Golden Gun. Now, I I I don't know if I've seen that one. Do you do you know, do you have a favorite Bond, by the way? I mean, most people I think is Sean Connery.
SPEAKER_03Oh, you know, I wasn't a big uh James Bond person growing up because I'll tell you why. Because the first Bond movie I ever took a look at was Goldfinger. Oh, yeah, and it really scared me. Yeah, I was probably too young to watch it. There were dark elements, and uh just the idea like that that song creeped me out. Yeah, Goldfinger song kind of was scary to me. It goes back to me being scared of like hippies and that kind of stuff. It seemed very too mystical for me, and I was scared. So um every Bond movie I've seen I've enjoyed, but I've never really gotten into the like the lore of it all. So but I'd say um I'd say yeah, Sean Cottery is is kind of the the gold standard, right? The gold finger standards.
SPEAKER_02So here's the thing I might have I better have been late to the party because the first Bond movie I ever saw was Octopussy, which Roger Moore. Now, Moonraker was the 80s, right? Yeah, was that Roger Moore as well? I think so, yeah. So this let's get back to the man with the golden gun. He played Knick knack, and Knick knack, you you've seen have you ever seen a picture of Herve? He's not in his white fantasy island suit, but he's in like a little darker suit with a bowler hat kind of thing. Um, and he looks a little bit more like a gangster. That was that was the outfit he wore as knick-knack. And what you said a few minutes ago actually is kind of spot on about being cast in that film because he was a little person.
SPEAKER_03I'm looking, I'm looking at him now. Yeah, is he wearing the bowler hat and the little henchmas? Henchman, yeah, yeah, henchman knick knack, like a three-piece uh suit, almost looks like sharp. Oh, yeah, he looks great. Yeah, that looks great.
SPEAKER_02So, so the thing that was interesting about it, you know, I kind of I kind of went down a little bit of a rabbit hole on it and watched a lot of clips from this movie. I think I had seen it years ago, but I have you know, I don't remember what was going on. But he was uh Roger Moore was James Bond, Christopher Lee was uh uh Scaramonga, Scaram Scaramanga, that was the bad guy's name. And Scaramanga is a mysterious guy. It was like um Julio Scaramanga, or I forget Scaramanga's first name. But what's interesting, if you think about it, he was a manservant to this bad guy. He wasn't the main bad guy, right? He wasn't the top billing of um bad guy. He his jobs, what what would a henchman? Sidekick, right? High sidekick. He'd set up meetings with the good guys, you know, with Bond. He'd he transported deadly weapons, he spied on targets.
SPEAKER_03Now, this picture that I'm looking at, he's holding a gun. Yeah. The gun looks to scale. The gun looks like it's his size, like it's a very, very tiny gun.
SPEAKER_02Oh, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03Well, I it looks like if he had held a regular size gun, it would have almost been ridiculous looking. It would have looked too big for him. So they got him this little tiny gun. Have you seen this picture? Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02I I think I think Scaramanga took good care of him and saw him as a valuable part of his operation. You know, he was Scaramango owned a an island, so ironically, he was the sidekick on a private island as well, much like he would be later on Fantasy Island. Oh, yeah. But but um Scaramanga trusted him. He was the only person Scaramango was close to. And of course, eventually, Bond, you know, wins the day. But he made a big impact, Herve did, by playing this role. He he he wasn't just comic relief, you know, as a little person like they might have intended originally. He actually really played the role really well. He he was intelligent, he was sinister, he was manipulative, and people remembered him. And so that that was a big door opener for him.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, he's getting seven. I mean, he was very charismatic, he had that unmistakable voice. Yeah, yeah. But he was also like he wasn't a clown, like he was kind of serious.
SPEAKER_02Well, he he, you know, all the things I just said, he was. He was he was he was a little bit mysterious and definitely intelligent and would have ideas. 77 comes along, and I don't know if you remember this. Do you remember what years um Fantasy Island ran from like that's its span?
SPEAKER_03I would have said I would guess 77 to like 82 or 83. 84. 84. But here's a I was an avid watcher of Fantasy Island, I freaking love that show.
SPEAKER_02So so it's weird that you say that because Fantasy Island was actually a little bit spooky, right? Oh, yeah. It had some supernatural, weird, scary stuff going. You didn't like James Bond because it scared you, but Fantasy Island didn't bother you?
SPEAKER_03I was probably older then. Yeah, I was just talking about Fantasy Island with our mutual friend Brian the other day and trying to figure out if Mr. Rourke was supposed to be um like um like have power like superpowers that he would make like this, or if he was like a witch or well, a lot of people say he was an island.
SPEAKER_02I'm sorry, uh an angel, an angel on earth. He was he was an angel who was in purgatory and having to prove himself um by by manipulating and helping humans become more moral.
SPEAKER_03The show really doesn't make a lot of sense once you start stripping it away. You know what I mean? But neither does any different strokes of the love boat or Alice or anything from that. We were talking about a particular episode where uh uh Gary Burgoff of MASH radar from MASH uh plays a guy who wants to uh be like a baseball player and he goes to Fantasy Island and like Tommy Lassorda, the manager of the Dodgers, is there? Right. Just happens to be. Just happens to be there. So it's like does Mr. Rourke pay Tommy Lazorda to be there, or is this like a is it is the fantasy real? Like, is it a real thing that's happening, or is it in your mind? Are you dead? Is this like like like on Lost? Yeah, I mean see that. Thanks for sure. They were all dead. Yeah, sorry if you haven't watched Lost. That just freed up a bunch of my time. I plan on watching it this weekend.
SPEAKER_02So, so um, there was chemistry between Ricardo Monteban and Herve Velicz. They had they had good chemistry, they really did. Um and and actually, you know what? I'll play you a little clip here. This is this is a little great little dialogue between them about second chances.
SPEAKER_06I've got this great plan, and this time it's gonna work.
SPEAKER_00Tattoo, must I remind you that arranging that reception for Mr. Ransom at the last moment was no small task? These uh plans of yours are proving to be quite taxing, to say nothing of expensive.
SPEAKER_06Well, this one is cheap. It's not gonna cost you anything. Well, almost anything.
SPEAKER_00What really concerns me, Tattoo, is that you've apparently not yet learned that second chances are very rare and very valuable indeed. One must seize whatever opportunities life chooses to deal out and act quickly and decisively, don't you understand?
SPEAKER_06Oh, yes, boss. I learned that. Well, who hesitant is lost? A potential tea only knocks but once.
SPEAKER_00The squeaky wheel gets the grease.
SPEAKER_06Boss. Please give me another chance. Did I ever ask you for anything before?
SPEAKER_00As a matter of fact, yes.
SPEAKER_06Well, I'm gonna ask you again.
SPEAKER_00Well, when you put it that way, how can I possibly refuse that tool?
SPEAKER_03A couple of things there. First of all, is there a better accent than Ricardo Montebund's Mexican accent?
SPEAKER_02No, no, no.
SPEAKER_03I mean, it is beautiful. Like it is if I would rather have that accent than no accent. Like I would rather be talking like that. If I could wave a magic wand, I wish I could have that accent. It is so beautiful. Yeah. Um, and it has like uh their chemistry kind of has like a um Sherlock Holmes and Watson vibe, I think. Yeah. Like kind of like you dummy, don't you get it? Like, but you will always be my assistant.
SPEAKER_02You'll never or or Gilligan uh in the skipper, right?
SPEAKER_01Uh you know, not quite as condescending as that.
SPEAKER_02No, but but but a little bit of you you dummy, don't you get it, right? Um or or uh well when you put it that way, you know, you know there's love there, but there's also a little bit of adversity and a little bit of um Well, you can tell who's this the the guy that's always gonna come up short and the guy that's always gonna but that you need that easy there.
SPEAKER_03That's like in the case of Sherlock Holmes, what I said easy there. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Sorry. Um when you when you think about it, um that that assistant, uh whether it's Watson or Tattoo or maybe even Gilligan, is the audience. Like we're not smart enough. We're not as smart as Sherlock Holmes, we're not as smart as as Mr. Rourke. We're the audience, we're the dumb ones that they're you know, but they're uh representing us, right? He's he's queuing up he's queuing up Mr.
SPEAKER_02Rourke's opportunity to give the moral of the story, right? He you know, second chances do not come very often, and when you have them, you must seize them. You know, and haven't you learned by now? Yeah. It's yeah, it's it's it's he's queuing up the the the moral uh Um and yeah, it's it's interesting that you and Brian were talking about this because I I did do quite a bit of reading about the Fantasy Island um series and and kind of what it it wasn't it was never really defined like what was going on there. It's a it's a luxurious tropical island. It's it's uh fifty thousand dollars by the way for a weekend there. That's that's the cost. And that's it 40 years ago. Yeah, yeah, that's that's 50,000, that's you know, $200,000 today or whatever for three days. Um, but it's got it's got moral lessons, it's got cautionary tales, it's got emotion, it's got romance, it's got supernatural adventures, and then you know, these just plain old scary things that would happen occasionally. And I remember watching it sometimes because the love boat was on right before it. They paired those two together.
SPEAKER_03And the love boat kind of casting, it was all the same people that would get cast. It was Aaron Spelling or he was the producer for both. So, you know, it had that great chance to get stars from other TV shows to come on and and flex their acting chops. And maybe maybe you haven't seen, you know, Mrs. Cunningham from Happy Days on anything else, but like you you only see her as that, but now you get to see her as somebody else. I love that idea.
SPEAKER_02She's on she's on Love Boat. She was on the episode actually with Andy Warhol uh of the Love Boat, uh Mrs. Cunningham, and and Tom Bosley as well. But um I wanted I want you to give me some of the stars you remember from Fantasy Island. I'm gonna I've got a few here too. Some of the the um the guest stars, yeah.
SPEAKER_03Guest stars that came in and well Barbie Benton, of course. Barbie Benton, yeah. Um was an old standby. Um, and of course the aforementioned Gary Burdock Burgoff and yeah, Lassorda. There they occasionally they would bring in people like Tommy Lasorda that was like, oh they're trying to reach a different demographic, maybe. Um I would say, yeah, probably Marion Ross and Tom Bosley.
SPEAKER_02Um I would say I don't I think they were I think they were I think they were on um Love Boat, but I don't think they were on Fantasy Island.
SPEAKER_03Oh, really? Um was Charo ever on there, or is that more of a love boat? No, that was love boat, yeah. Goochie goochie coo. So it wasn't exactly all the same people, huh?
SPEAKER_02Well, well, here's one here's one from uh an episode a couple of weeks ago, the Andy Griffith show. Don Knotts was was on Fantasy Island.
SPEAKER_03I think I can picture that, and he wore like a lay around his neck and uh Yeah, yeah, yeah. Joan Collins, Burt Reynolds, you know, big 70s, Annette Foot Fuchicello Funichello. Annette Funichello was uh big crush of my father's back in the day. Okay.
SPEAKER_02Shout out, shout out to uh Maxine. She was on Better Watch out.
SPEAKER_03Mickey Mouse Club, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Gina Davis was on Dennis Allen. LeVar Burton was on Sonny Bono appeared on the show. Uh and here's here's a couple that well Linda Carter, you know, that that's uh Tom Sellett promotion. Oh, of course. Tom Sellett before well, I don't think he was big yet. I don't think Magnum PI had hit yet. I think that was a little later. But here's here's two that here's two that I didn't know about that might surprise you. Donnie Osman. Okay. And uh Mark Hamill, Luke Skywalker was on fantasy.
SPEAKER_03Well, of course, he had to capitalize on that. Yeah. Um that was yeah, it's a good show. And there was usually three stories going on, right? And uh yeah, yeah. It would cut between them.
SPEAKER_02One would be more lighthearted and fun, and one would be more dark and mysterious, and one might be a good one.
SPEAKER_03So you think about it, each one of those stories were about 15 to 20 minutes. Yeah, yeah. It was an hour-long program.
SPEAKER_02I think both Love Boat and Fantasy Island were hours, but which means 15 minutes forty 48 minutes of programming, right? Um was a big success, especially in the early years, and it was brilliant that Aaron Spelling put it back to back with the love boat because it kind of played off of each other.
SPEAKER_03Um, but the thing is, um oh, and here's what else Brian and I talked about. Hold on. Saturday night show, which meant that people our age were watching it with their grandparents usually. Um that kids and grandparents would watch together. Wasn't particularly saucy or inappropriate. I mean, there were probably some things that went over our heads, there were probably some things that went over our grandparents' heads, right? But I that's how we remember it. People from our generation remember it as a Saturday night show, so we wouldn't usually watch it with our parents who were like out, right? But it was a uh a kids and grandparents' show or the babysitter, or you watched it. There was a lot of shows like that when you think about like we've talked about hee-haw a lot on this show, yeah, yeah, and uh the love boat and and shows like that were ones that we could bond with our grandparents. Did you ever watch this with your grandparents? Oh, I'm sure I did.
SPEAKER_02I'm sure I did. Although, although um my dad's parents they would have been more of the hee-haw crowd, but but my mom didn't watch both, yeah, yeah. I mean, we yeah, we did. Um one of the big things that was a problem though, so there were scandals on the set. Do you know about this? No. You know, Hervey was eventually fired. I did not know. Oh, did they replace him with somebody? And we're gonna talk about that. But um, he the biggest thing, at least the most public thing they said was that he demanded to be paid the same as Ricardo Montaban, and they refused. Ricardo was the was the star and he was the sidekick. Now, the question is, was he being unreasonable or was this was this actually him looking for equal pay and equal respect, you know, as a as a co-star.
SPEAKER_03Those were not those were not equal parts. No, you don't think he was a supporting you could do the show without tattoo, you can't do the show without Mr. Roar.
SPEAKER_02Well, he he um fought he fought with producers, um he made advances on women like some of the guest stars and some of the extras and some of the um people he had he had kind of issues with doing that. Um he he he actually was married uh and and had um an affair on his first wife. Um he just had a reputation for being difficult, but a lot of people you know who saw him in the show, I think thought of him as one way. He really had um some medical issues going on too. It's said that part of his uh difficulty and part of his personality came from the fact that his uh internal organs were growing at the same size as a you know a normal size organ, but his body didn't. And so he had a lot of pain and a lot of cramps and he had trouble breathing sometimes because his lungs were too big or his heart was too big. I don't know if that's medically accurate, but but he he had complications with his um endocrine challenge. And and that was a that was a part of the reason that he was kind of um volatile sometimes. And then, you know, you think about all the things we talked about earlier, the the um therapy that his father had done, and I'm putting therapy in air quotes, uh, the bullying that he had received as a child, you know, the fact that he was um originally cast as a sidekick, but probably his size had a lot to do with it because they wanted somebody who would be a little bit of a novelty versus a you know didn't appreciate him as a true actor. But all of this led to lots of conflicts with the producers and with the cast and with the show. He he and uh Ricardo Montebon were pretty tight, but he ended up getting fired in 1983. So you asked if they replaced him.
SPEAKER_03Yes, I mean this was the same time where ABC was dealing with the same kind of stuff on Laverne and Shirley and on Three's Company, where these these cast members were getting a little too famous for their show and was doing it.
SPEAKER_02Too big for their britches. Is that what you were gonna say?
SPEAKER_03Well, no, like Suzanne Summers on Three's Company, they basically wrote her out of the show, or they were she was refusing to come to set. They have they would film a lot of episodes where like she was they were on the phone with her, right? Yeah, she wasn't on set, right? Um, Laverne and Shirley was the same thing. I think uh Cindy Williams had a uh dust up in this. May if you're younger than us, this may sound really like foreign. Like, what are these guys talking about? But back then, man, there were only like three networks, yeah. And these shows would draw 20, 25, 30 million people on a just a random every week, yeah, a Saturday night. And these shows were really big, and these people were becoming stars, and it was usually the co-stars, like the Suzanne Summers wasn't making as much as John Ritter on Three's Company, and Cindy Williams wasn't making as much as Penny Marshall. Now that one I get, but um I do not know.
SPEAKER_02Because everybody remembers Penny Marshall's name, but but very few people remember. It wasn't Shirley and Laverne, right? Right, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's it's uh it's it's not it's not Kelly and Alex, it's Alex and Kelly, right? Wow, yeah. I thought that was more of an alphabetical thing.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I think I think we should get paid the same on this show, but you you've got to miss some. We do, we do. So um, but no, those were that was the same network, and it was around the same time, if I'm not mistaken. So I mean ABC had to kind of take a stand, yeah, and they couldn't just give in to all these demands, I suppose. Um I think even the uh I think even the Lauren Tweez on the Love Boat maybe had a like a uh dispute where the the one that played the uh Julie, the uh oh the Lauren Tweez. Wow, that is woman's cut. Walked around with the clipboard, yeah, yeah, yeah. Julie Julie, the cruise director, yeah. I think she even had a holdout where she refused to come to work. So I mean ABC we had a lot of like labor issues during this time. So maybe he maybe he started it, or maybe he was just like on the bandwagon.
SPEAKER_02Well, I mean it it wasn't just one thing, even though um ABC said it was because of his um uh uh labor dispute or or salary dispute, a lot of it had to do with the other behavior that he had. And that was documented, right? There, this was something that that was was was known about him. Um he left in '83 and and he was replaced, but not his role wasn't replaced. They didn't try to find a new tattoo. They had a man named Lawrence who was played by Christopher Hewitt. So Mr. Belvedere? British actor. Yeah. So so there were lots of contrasts between Tattoo and uh and Lawrence. Um Lawrence was much more formal, valet type of person. He didn't have the same kind of energy as tattoo. Um, he was a reserved gentleman, and he actually um was he he was thought to be kind of stuffy because instead of going up into the tower and ringing the bell, he had a button that he pushed and the bell would ring automatically. You remember this?
SPEAKER_03Oh, he was a large man. He wouldn't it would take forever for him to get up that tower. I I don't know if it was that. I you know, was he was he smarter and more innovative by coming up with the no, I think it was the uh narrow staircase that got yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Okay. Well, it was it was the spark was lost, and that it ended up being in '83, uh Hervey was let go. 80 83, 84 was the last season, final season, and and uh the magic had left with Herve.
SPEAKER_03I think I would have cast it differently. I wouldn't have cast Mr. Belvedere. I don't think he was Mr. Belvedere yet. No, I know, but I'm just saying I wouldn't have cast that guy. I wouldn't have cast the stuffy British guy.
SPEAKER_02I think they were trying to go the opposite, right? They were trying to they were trying to to um lean into somebody completely different.
SPEAKER_03I might have well, I would have done that. I wouldn't have cast another little person. Who would you have who would you cast that? I might have gone uh like a jarball, like a no, like a poly shore. Oh don knotts. Uh no. Don Knott's comes back and gets stuck. I think somebody younger than uh like a young dumb guy.
SPEAKER_02Who who was that in the 80s or 70s?
SPEAKER_03Polly Shore was Pauly, okay. Polly.
SPEAKER_02So hey Mr.
SPEAKER_03Rook, yeah, yeah, you know, or or um I think I've gone for more of the Gilligan generally spicoli dumb guy kind of yeah, stoner kind of vibe. Yeah, oh yeah. I might have done that. Mr. R. They call him Mr. R. Because you what you do when you when you cast a stuffy British guy is you ruin that chemistry, that dynamic that we were talking about of I know more than you do. Has to be somebody that would be subservient to him in order to make it work. And you can't have like a butler type.
SPEAKER_02Well, butlers are by their definition subservient, right? That's their job to be subservient, even though they're smart, and even though they're clever, and even though they're they're um that's what I mean by subservient, like uh like intellectually subservient, is what I mean.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, not like because Mr. Bourke didn't like say go get me a drink or anything like that. He was it was just like giving lessons. You have to have a Watson to the homes, right?
SPEAKER_05Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03And I I would have gone kind of a uh a silly, kind of clueless, but um or maybe you know what you do? You make some you you make that somebody's some rotating? No, you make that somebody's fantasy to be to be um to be Mr. Rourke's assistant. Maybe you maybe you do a rotating thing where every week somebody has a fantasy to be Mr. Rourke's assistant, and you just see how that goes every week.
SPEAKER_01Goody goochie, Mr. Rourke.
SPEAKER_03Oh you have to be called how many times have I told you? As as nice as it would have been to have a woman in that role, I don't think there's any way that doesn't go badly.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, we have a dress code here on Fantasy Island, Charlotte. Well, one thing that is said um about him and his role there is he did have a major impact um as a pioneer in acting for little people. And you know, that was like like as you said before, um, a lot of them are cast because they were little before, but you mentioned Peter Dinklage, who didn't want to be in roles like that. He wanted to be in real roles where he could really play um you know emotionally and and real drama, and he's done it, right? I mean, the fact that he is a little personal.
SPEAKER_03The only role I can think of that he's been in where they even talk about him being little is his role in elf. Yeah, in which he turns it on its head and you're an angry elf. He's a like a bastard and like a uh an angry guy, and so he kind of even plays with that.
SPEAKER_02But but he's kind of he's he's a type A, he's a dominant guy, right? He's somebody used to getting his own way um in that show. Um, well, and of course, you know, Game of Thrones, he's amazing in that. Um, you know, as as you go on, he becomes the mastermind for everything. Um, there are a few other people that are worth mentioning. Billy Bardi um was an earlier actor whoaned into all that stuff. You know, but Billy Bardi also, I don't know if you know this, he was um he was a big advocate for people with that condition. He he he actually, you know, he and Hervey had some beef because Hervey still used the word midget, and Billy Bardi didn't like that word. Um you ever heard of uh Warwick Davis? Oh yeah, Warwick, yeah. Or Warwick, Warwick Davis, yeah. Um he he was in um he was in um Harry Potter and he was in uh I think Willow and a lot of those shows. The other person that pops into my head, um, who I have this weird kind of um I'll tell you a quick story, like not a personal relationship, but a little bit of a tangential thing with Vern Troyer. Oh yeah, Vern Troyer. So Vern Troyer was mini me and and uh he died actually a few years ago, but yeah, uh I do drone videos on YouTube, and I had a video that had a big uptick in views. I was looking at the analytics on YouTube. This is several years back, like five, ten years ago, maybe. Um, and this big uptick, and I you on YouTube, unlike some of the podcasting tools, but YouTube that does a lot better with analytics. I went to look and see the referencing, like where all these videos were coming from. And you know how on YouTube, if you watch it one video, it'll recommend another one. If you watch this, you might like this. Mine was my video was called um how not to crash your drone. Like uh, like, like you know, kind of tips for not cross crashing your first drone. Turns out Vern Troyer had a YouTube channel and he had a video called I Crashed My Drone. And it was it was that video had hundreds of thousands of views, millions of views. Vern Troyer, because he was popular on YouTube, uh, and that video was was linking to mine. So reach out to him. Yeah, I said, Hey man, we should do a collab sometime. How about this? You be you be the small version of me. And Mr. Oric. He could have had a root drum show. I was thinking I was thinking more of Austin Powers, but uh and and Dr. Dr. Evil. Um so so but but in all seriousness, you know, he did he did break some barriers because he wasn't just a side, he was a sidekick, but he was a sidekick with um with charisma, with feelings, with a personality, you know, with um some mystery to him, and he definitely changed, you know, helped change the way people view little people in Hollywood. Do you think he was a good actor? I do, I do. I I think he played one role really well, and that was the that was the sidekick.
SPEAKER_03And you know, I never saw the Bond movie, but it always seemed like he was reading his lines to me. You know, maybe it was his accent or something.
SPEAKER_02Watch watch some clips. You mean even on Fantasy Island, you thought that?
SPEAKER_03Yes, but it's the only thing I've ever seen him in. I didn't think he had a lot of range.
SPEAKER_02Well, let me let me uh let me blow your mind a little bit. He was actually in an episode, um, several episodes in the 70s of Sesame Street. Okay. That doesn't blow my mind too much. He played the role of Oscar the Grouch's legs. So did you know that Sesame Street went to Hawaii and did an episode in Hawaii? No. In 1978. So if you Google that, and just Sesame Street in Hawaii, and then you watch the first uh few first few moments, right? Within the first minute, you'll see uh Big Bird and Oscar the Grouch walking through the airport, getting ready to get on the plane, and those legs are Hervey's legs in the trash.
SPEAKER_03So he they put him in the whole costume?
SPEAKER_02Uh well it's it's the you know how Oscar the Grouch would pop out of the and the top was on the trash can and he would pop out. Um he you can just see the little green fuzz in his eyes, and then you see the legs walking. Because Oscar the Grouch was not mobile, like he never really moved, but in this case he had to move. So they had Herve in the in the trash can walking that that doesn't make any sense.
SPEAKER_03So the trash can has a hole in the bottom of it?
SPEAKER_02I it probably was there, probably wasn't any bottom to it. It was just like rigged onto his shoulders so that it sat No, I no, I don't mean in real life.
SPEAKER_03I mean, we're supposed to believe that Oscar Grouch is in a trash can that has a hole in the bottom of it. He wore it almost like a armor, like a suit of armor.
SPEAKER_02Like the guy with the barrel that wears the fork with the barrel. Exactly, with the with with the suspenders, yes. No. Well, watch the first few seconds of Sesame Street in Hawaii and you'll see what I'm talking about.
SPEAKER_03Um they should have if I was doing that, I would have had the baggage handlers just throwing the trash can onto the plane. That's why you were not a producer for Sesame Street. That would have traumatized a lot of kids.
SPEAKER_02I don't think it makes any sense to have a hole in the bottom of the trash can that he walks around in because then the trash would just come out when you're you've also got a giant bird with an imaginary friend, and you've got uh, you know, all these adults who were multicultural and multi-race in the 70s all living harmoniously together. I mean, you had to be willing to suspend your disbelief. Not that that can't happen, but at that time it was a it was novelty.
SPEAKER_03By the way, if you haven't listened to the Jim Henson episode, that's a few years old. Go back and listen to that one. But yeah, let's I think we might have mentioned in that one. I think you're flecking his uh theories about about these characters. Snuff Alopagus started as imaginary and then later on became real. Yeah. That's that's another hole in the logic. I think after Jim Henson died, all hell broke loose in terms of canon.
SPEAKER_02Well, Big Bird's whole quest uh when they go to Hawaii, where Snuff Elopic is. Still fantasy, um, is that he's going to find a mountain on on one of the islands that's shaped like Snuffilophagus. And then he ends up finding Snuffilophagus. It's worth a while. Snuff of Snuff not Snuffilophagus? No, I don't think so. No, well, if if you've been doing it wrong all these years. If you if you want to um correct us, not at dirtnapcity.com. Let us know if it's Snuffilophagus or Snuffilophagus. No, that doesn't even make sense. Sounds like a dinophilophagus. Snuffhalophagus. No. Snuffhalophagus. That's funnier. And it wor it rolls off the tongue better.
SPEAKER_03I don't think so.
SPEAKER_02So after he was on Fantasy Island, he uh didn't really recover, you know, that was his biggest role. He had he had peaked as far as his professional role went. He uh ended up doing a lot of talk shows, you know, he would kind of be on um uh these get comedy roles or cameos or guest appearances on other shows, but but they didn't really cast him as a serious character at that point. At that point, he was a little person that they wanted to bring on who had been tattooed. That's all they wanted to talk about was his role. You know, it's probably kind of like um uh um William Shatner, you know, always talking about Kirk. He's like, Come on, let's talk about TJ Hooker. No, I want to talk about Kirk. So he did have this internal organ problem, a lot of trouble, uh breathing, a lot of trouble, um uh chronic pain. And in 1993, at the age of 50, he died by suicide. And he did leave a note kind of explaining about the pain and and why you know he felt he was a little bit uh misunderstood and things like that. Um but it was something he couldn't really uh ever get back to, the the stardom that he had once had. Now, as I said, he was on Sesame Street, he was uh actually in uh a movie called Forbidden Zone in 1982. He was also in Airplane 2, the sequel. He had a guest appearance on Different Strokes, he had a guest appearance on Taxi, um, and he played the title role of Rumpel Stillskin in uh Shelly Duvall's fairy tale theater. And I guess he became pretty uh famous for a impersonation he did of Felipe Gonzalez, who was the Prime Minister of Spain for a little while. Uh his last show before he passed was the Ben Stiller show, and he was in a contract or in negotiations uh with Cartoon Network to be on, you want to guess he was gonna be the sidekick on on a I thought a really great Cartoon Network show. Like probably one of my favorites ever. Which one? Space Ghost Coast to Coast.
SPEAKER_03Okay, yeah. That was the talk show?
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Oh, did you ever watch that? Yeah, it's it's it's really it's really great. I love Space Ghost Coast to Coast. But yeah, um, you know, he he did definitely um in some ways sabotage himself, but in other ways broke a lot of ground and became somebody that was more than just what you saw when you looked at him. You know, he be he became an icon and he became a person that while I think a lot of people maybe didn't think his acting was that great, at least it was sincere. It was it wasn't just there for comedy, and it was there to kind of help the show, Fantasy Island, bring those morals to life.
SPEAKER_03Oh yeah. And I would say for anybody our age, a hundred percent um what do they call it? Q rating, right?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, yeah. How recognizable you are.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Probably more so, even though the love boat was probably uh had more higher ratings. I'm guessing that he had a higher Q rating than any one person on the Love Boat.
SPEAKER_02Uh I uh one challenger I could think of. And I don't I actually don't know his real name, but uh that's Isaac the bartender with the pointing. That's my point, the two fingers.
SPEAKER_03That's my Ted Lang? Ted Lange, thank you. But that's my point, is that we know that Herve Velicese's name, and you don't know any of the names of any of the people that are on the love boat. I mean, I do, but you wouldn't. True, true.
SPEAKER_02Well, that's your superpower, Alex. Well done. Well, that's Herve Velicez. Um, I found him pretty interesting and certainly uh enjoyed this conversation about him. If you like these kind of things, you should definitely download more episodes. Hit us up at not at Vertnap City.
SPEAKER_03If you're still with us 49 minutes into a discussion of Herve Velicez, then every episode at Vertnap City is for you. This is the kind of stuff we do on the regular. Um and then every other week we talk about instead of people, we talk about other kinds of things that aren't around anymore. Yep. Uh it's typically for people that are in their 50s, I'd say, um, from Generation X. But I think it would be a blast to listen to if you were in your 30s or your 20s and you had no idea who any of these people were, but you love the knuckleheads that have the passion to talk about this kind of stuff.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, or or even if you were in your early 20s and your name was like Tate or Kirby, you know, that might be worth it.
SPEAKER_03Sure, probably not, but you know, probably had some TikToks to watch or some snapchats to snaps to chat.
SPEAKER_02To snap. All right, everybody. Thanks for listening, and uh, we'll see you next time on Dirt Nip City, the podcast about interesting dead people.
SPEAKER_04They dressed him in white, tiny suit, tiny tie. Stand by his shoulder, smile on cue, don't ask why. He bowed to the left, but it cut in like last he was born for the spotlight, stuck chasing its past. This is the ballet of earth I did for his brain, every movie of the world He was burning for the way to the rain The play the play But I was made I was made to be the main She loved like a landslide Fast foolish too full speed too much for one lifetime too fierce to be needed back field More than a memorized line every just a confession I am bigger than my size This is the body of her day I too much for his play Ever Heaven walked in He was burning for a day called the way crying to the way The plane the plane But I was made I was made to be the main They said you're the punchline He said I'm the pain You class shadow I'm a hurricane If I stand on the stable Will you finally say I am not his echo And the story He's single ballot of the day too for his brain Every dream he ever chased down Still alive in his nested for us crying to the way the plate the plate I was made I was made to be the name the play the play I was made to be the night
