Who Was Jerry Springer?

Love him or hate him, Jerry Springer is definitely one of the most interesting recent residents of Dirt Nap City. Jerry Springer is a former politician and lawyer who became famous for hosting the tabloid talk show The Jerry Springer Show from 1991 to 2018. The show was known for its outrageous and often controversial content, which often featured guests who were involved in infidelity, violence, and other scandals. Despite its often negative reputation, The Jerry Springer Show was a ratings success, and Springer himself became a household name.

But did you know that it all started with a check that Jerry wrote to a prostitute and gonzo political tactics while he was the Mayor of Cincinnati, Ohio?

In this podcast, Kelly and Alex discuss Jerry Springer's life and career. We will talk about his early years as a politician and lawyer, his rise to fame as the host of The Jerry Springer Show, and his transition into political activism. We will also discuss his legacy and his impact on popular culture.

If you like the content we are creating and would like to support it financially, check our Patreon page here: https://www.patreon.com/DirtNapCityPodcast

Or, if you prefer to support us in another way, recommend an episode to one of your friends. We appreciate everyone who listens every month and look forward to making this podcast even better with your support.

Transcript

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SPEAKER_01 0:11

I am uh actually not in Texas today. I'm in up to date New York, but Alex is in Texas. Alex, what's going on in Texas? Hey, buddy, it's five and uh yeah, I saw a sign, you know, El Arroyo, the famous uh sign that the Mexicans would place it said um to all you newcomers to Texas, this is just the oven pre-heating. Today's subject of Dirt Dap City, and for those of you that don't know, Alex does not know who I have selected because I selected today's subject. It is an interesting dead person, and this person is in the favorite in your favorite um century. This is a 20th century person. Nice. I tend to go for the really old people sometimes, so I figured I'd modernize this a little bit, go for something a little bit less um arcane, and let you be a little bit more into it because this person I think is somebody you're gonna really like and somebody that you'll have a lot of opinions about, I believe. Do you think it's somebody I already do like? I think it's somebody you would actually have picked. Um, so I I tried to get there first.

SPEAKER_08 1:16

So I'm excited.

SPEAKER_01 1:17

All right, so I'll give you the first hint, and it's always the one that is a little bit um not useful, but this person was born in 1944 in England and was actually born in a train station that was being used as a bomb shelter. Richard Dawson. Richard Dawson, huh? Uh interesting, interesting. Was he born in England? Yeah, he was. Now he was the host of a game show, right? Family Feud. Family Feud, yeah. No, no, it wasn't Richard Dawson, but this this person moved to the U.S. at age five with uh parents and one sister. They actually weren't English people, they were actually German, and they were escaping from Nazi Germany uh in, I guess that would have been 1949, coming over to the US after escaping to England first from Germany and then to the U.S. And his parents were both German Jews, moved to New York, and they uh kind of escaped from the Holocaust and all that. But unfortunately, his grandparents actually were killed in the Holocaust. And there's a little story about him coming to the U.S. when they were on the boat, they were actually passing the Statue of Liberty, and as they passed, um, everybody was looking. And remember, this person was only five years old. He was only five years old, and he uh looked out and said, everybody was looking off the deck of the boat and in awe at the Statue of Liberty, and he looked out to his mother and said, Um, what does that statue mean? And his mother said in German, Eintag alles, which means one day everything. He grew up in New York and was a big fan of the Yankees. He was also a big fan of Senator Kennedy, and that's how he uh worked to get into politics initially, but eventually left politics to go into television. What year did he die? Uh 2023. Oh, geez. New resident. He's just just kind of just kind of moving in and figuring out dirt nap city at this point, meeting all the other folks. Wow. Wow. Oh man, politic politician. He was a politician, turned T T V anchor, turned talk show host.

SPEAKER_08 3:29

Oh, wow. How can I not get this? I'm really questioning this myself. No, I I especially since it's a recent uh resident. Do you have any other clues for me?

SPEAKER_01 3:41

Well, he was the mayor of Cincinnati at one time.

SPEAKER_08 3:44

Oh, yeah, there you go. Jerry Springer. I forgot he just passed away.

SPEAKER_01 3:49

Yeah, yeah. Oh, well, you know, um, we're gonna make you remember because as you say, the first time you die is is the first one, but you really die when nobody talks about you or remembers you.

SPEAKER_08 3:59

So you know, I have a feeling that people aren't gonna be talking about him as long as uh we might have thought 10 years ago.

SPEAKER_01 4:06

Well, that's part of why I put him on the show. I'm hoping to bolster his image a little bit. You're hoping uh to uh get his Google trend up. Well, I'm hoping it's high already so that this show gets a lot of views or listens, downloads.

SPEAKER_08 4:19

Jerry Springer, I did not know he was born in England, but wow. Yeah, interesting.

SPEAKER_01 4:22

Born in England, his parents had had uh escaped from the Holocaust into England.

SPEAKER_08 4:27

Wow. And I think I actually have the the um VHS tape of uh Jerry Springer uh Gone Wild or Yes Gone Wild or whatever.

SPEAKER_01 4:38

Well, funny funny enough, I actually uh in in preparation for this show, uh, because you know I'm all about that prep. I got uh I downloaded or actually um didn't download, I viewed the movie called Ringmaster, which is the movie of him about it's it's a fictionalized version of him, and I only got through about 15 minutes of it. It was pretty terrible. Pretty bad. Yeah, yeah. It wasn't a documentary then. It wasn't no, it was a fictionalized version about uh about you know people who go on a show and this host and his name wasn't even Jerry Springer in the show, it was Jerry something else, but they still chanted Jerry, Jerry. That was gonna be my last clue. I was gonna go, Alex, Alex, Alex.

SPEAKER_08 5:18

No, the mayor of Cincinnati had me. You had me at that one.

SPEAKER_01 5:21

So his family was German. Um, but again, he was born in England. His father owned a shoe store in New York when they got here, and his mother was a bank clerk, was a big fan of John Kennedy. That kind of piqued his interest in politics. Um, he did go to school in uh New Orleans at Tulane University and actually worked at the student radio station WTUL at Tulane, which is where uh my buddy Johnny Hutchins worked for years. Shout out to Johnny. Yeah, he worked at WTUL and was a big fan of it. Um he did go to law school at Northwestern University in 1967. He began working at a law firm in Chicago. So he went to work for Bobby Kennedy's uh presidential campaign in 1968, and then after his assassination, he began practicing law in Cincinnati, Ohio. He did have the political bug in 1970. He ran for the U.S. House of Representatives, but lost. However, um, he actually did pretty well because he took 45% of the vote in a traditionally Republican district, and so that kind of told him, hey, maybe there's something here. Um, and he was pretty liberal Democrat. He was against the war in Vietnam, he was for civil rights. You know, having grown up as um sort of with parents who had to flee the country, he was very much about people's rights and not to judge people and to accept people for who they were, etc., believe it or not, you know, later in life, right?

SPEAKER_08 6:49

Well, I think that's cons well, yeah. I'm sure we'll talk about it, but I think that was consistent with how his show started, and then it just kind of got perverted after that.

SPEAKER_01 6:59

Yeah, yeah. So, but before the show, he did win an election to Cincinnati City Council in 1971, and then he actually did you know about the scandal that rocked his world after he was on the council? Didn't he write a check to a prostitute? Yes, he solicited a prostitute and an FBI investigation into an illegal massage parlor found that he had been a repeat customer because they found the checks, and you know, Cincinnati's on the border with Kentucky. You know, it's it's uh Ohio, but it's on the border with Kentucky. So he would go across the river into Kentucky to this massage parlor and pay by check. It turned out when this happened that people weren't really mad at him for the scandal, they were mad at him for being stupid.

SPEAKER_08 7:45

Right. I remember that was the reaction when uh um, well, yeah, that's generally the reaction. Yeah. Just it seems like a dumb thing. Um, I'm surprised they even take checks.

SPEAKER_01 7:55

Right, right. Well, they probably, you know, probably Venmo now, but you know, that seems even more traceable. But yeah, he paid by a check and he was pretty distraught about it, was planning to resign, leave town in disgrace, try to start his life over somewhere. And then with help of, and by the way, his wife stuck with him, and with help of his family, he decided to reverse course. He ended up having a press conference and bared his soul to the city and said, Look, I'm an idiot. I did something really stupid, I shouldn't have done this. And immediately the reaction was, you know, uh one of support. He had a lot of support from the city. They still razzed him, they still gave him a hard time. But even an order of nuns at the College of Mount St. Joseph in the Cincinnati area sent stones to the city council saying, Let he without sin cast the first stone.

SPEAKER_08 8:47

I've always thought about I've thought about that a lot about uh this instance and how liberating it must have been. Once you it must be the hardest thing to do to just uh go in front of people and admit that you're so stupid and you just so feel so vulnerable. But once you come out of it, you probably just feel invincible.

SPEAKER_01 9:08

Yeah, you you they don't have anything over you. They don't have anything over you anymore.

SPEAKER_08 9:13

Absolutely. Uh and you've been through the worst, and there's nothing nothing can everything pales in comparison now. You're playing with house money from then on, especially if your wife sticks with you and the um your religious community sticks with you and the your constituents stick with you, you probably just feel like, all right, well it doesn't surprise me that he was a success after that.

SPEAKER_01 9:35

And and you know, he says that was a pivotal moment in his life, of course, because I think the the natural reaction is to turn tide and run and say, you know, I'm I'm shamed, I need to get out of here, but he didn't. And he actually uh was re-elected to city council in 75, and then in 77 he became the mayor of Cincinnati. Now, what's really interesting about this time period is he had been working with the Kennedys, as we talked about before, and had sort of affected a little bit of an accent. And I want you to take a listen to this clip and tell me if if you what you think about this accent. So here it goes.

SPEAKER_04 10:13

Finally, a personal note. It's difficult to be casual about a moment like this. I've been asked continuously over the past few days what significance, if any, my assumption to this office has. I'm not sure. I guess I would like it to mean that our community, contrary to some negative criticism from time to time, is really pretty open and pretty progressive, and yes, even pretty compassionate.

SPEAKER_08 10:39

Yeah, he sounds a little like Mayor Quimby on this instance.

SPEAKER_01 10:42

Yeah, which which is a takeoff of the candidates. Right. Right? It's that sort of Boston, uh, Massachusetts kind of accent. And he was an outsider. He was definitely uh it was a traditionally Republican district, and he was a pretty liberal Democrat. And so I think he was trying to be very open to the older people of the community, the newer people, you know, just just to say I'm I'm sort of everybody's mayor.

SPEAKER_08 11:07

That's kind of the inspirational white guy um, you know, tone. Hashtag you know inspirational white guy. I mean, that's definitely the tone he was taking. But yeah, that sounds like a different uh Jerry that we uh ended up uh knowing later.

SPEAKER_01 11:23

Yeah, yeah. Well, I think that's straight after he had been working with the Kennedys. And and so as the mayor of Cincinnati, though, he he did some pretty radical things, and I say radical in a good way. He was sort of known as a gonzo uh politician. Uh he he stayed the night in jail one night just to see what that was like. He commandeered buses after uh after a bus strike just to to to I don't know, ride around on the buses. Um and he also had the idea of having concerts at Riverfront Stadium. Now that's where the Bengals and the Reds played. He basically saw it sitting empty most of the year, right? Because that's all it was used for were football and professional football and baseball games. And he thought it'd be a good revenue source and also a good sort of um, I don't know, cultural thing to have concerts there. So he said, I'm gonna bring rock and roll to Cincinnati. And you know, the first person he reached out to to bring in was no woman rocker from from the uh oh Joe uh uh was it um Christy Hind and the Pretenders, Joan Jett, Pat Benatar? Good good guesses, Linda Ronstadt. Linda Ronstadt. So he reached out to Linda Ronstadt and offered her a key to the city if she would be available to do a concert. However, the date that they needed, she wasn't available, but her manager hooked them up with Eddie Money, Steve Miller, and the Eagles, all of which played at the stadium.

SPEAKER_08 12:52

Wow, that that attracts kind of the same crowd, I would think. Any of those three.

SPEAKER_01 12:57

Yeah, I mean, I think I'd rather see any of those. Nothing against Linda Ronstadt, but I don't really, you know, she wouldn't, she wouldn't be my first choice, but I'd go see Steve Miller and the Eagles. But I think they all ran together. Oh, yeah, yeah. And as a matter of fact, he was able to go on stage during the Eagles set and and sing Lion Eyes with them during the concert. Is there a YouTube video of that? I that's a great question. I didn't look for that one. I did I did actually pull a lot of clips from online that we're gonna hear today. Um, but yeah, it would be cool to see um Jerry Springer singing Lion Eyes with the with the Eagles. Um, but he basically realized that giving a key to the city cost the city nothing and you know, maybe 99 cents for a key. And he realized he could attract bands to play, so he started doing that and bringing more revenue, which was kind of one of those gonzo things he did that nobody had done before. He kind of learned during that time period to accept the shame of his uh prostitution scandal, and to the point where a local radio station would feature him on um on different sh program shows, and they actually made a parody of it. Um you remember the old American Express commercials?

SPEAKER_04 14:10

Hi, do you know me? My face is seen all over Cincinnati constantly. But when I travel, say across state lines, people don't know the difference between Jerry Springer and Jerry Ford. So that's why I carry this the American Expense Card. It's the card that's good at thousands of clubs and motels across the river. I can even get instant hassle-free check approval. For quick, enjoyable entertainment, it can't be beat. Just like me.

SPEAKER_08 14:38

Wow. You remember those commercials? The yeah, I I do, but man, he's really leaning into the scandal, isn't he? Yeah. I was just gonna say that's very of today, I feel like the shameless part of to people today. I think he was ahead of his time.

SPEAKER_01 14:53

Well, I think you said it really well is that he um he he leaned into it because he felt empowered, right? Once he had said it, he's like, okay, everybody knows, I'm gonna milk this, you know. And I think he was also goaded a little bit by the radio station. Apparently, there was a disc jockey in Cincinnati that would um raz him a bit, but have him on as a guest too, sort of a Howard Stern type person, I think.

SPEAKER_08 15:16

Uh the problem is that only people in Cincinnati know about you and your scandal. In order to uh capitalize on that, you have to kind of take it wider. So everywhere you go, you're having to remind people about it.

SPEAKER_01 15:28

Funny thing you say about that is he decided in 81, yeah, 1981, he decided to run for governor, seeking the Democratic nomination for the 82 gubernatorial election. And he actually decided, as you said, to lean even further into it and ran this commercial uh talking about why people should vote for him.

SPEAKER_03 15:51

I'm Jerry Springer, and I want to be your governor. Now, after sharing some specific solutions for our unemployment and education problems in this state, it looks like the nomination is finally within grasp, which makes what I'm about to tell you even more difficult. Some nine years ago, I spent time with a woman I shouldn't have, and I paid her with a check. I wish I hadn't done that, and the truth is, I wish no one would ever know. But in the rough world of politics, opponents are not about to let personal embarrassments lay to rest. Perhaps, like you, I'm not sure what any of this has to do with being governor, but maybe my talking to you about this makes a point. Ohio is in a world of hurt. The next governor is gonna have to take some heavy risks and face some hard truths. I'm prepared to do that. This commercial should be proof. I'm not afraid, even of the truth, and even if it hurts. Come on, join me on June 8th. We're gonna turn the state around. Jerry Springer, Democrat for Governor.

SPEAKER_08 16:48

The thing I love about that is he recognizes that the thing that people have a problem with is the paying of the check. Well, I even mentioned that he paid with the check. The problem he should, you know, if he was if he was less savvy, he would have said, I spent time with a woman I shouldn't have, and I regret that.

SPEAKER_01 17:05

But then Right, right. And I paid with a check. He said, I wouldn't have I wish I hadn't done that.

SPEAKER_08 17:11

And you don't know which one he's talking about, which part he's talking about that he wish he hadn't done it. Yeah, beautiful. That like I said, he's of today. It's it's it's he's so ahead of his time there.

SPEAKER_01 17:22

He he lost and ended up uh unemployed because you know he wasn't on city council anymore, he wasn't um involved in politics, but he did um become a commentator on the Cincinnati NBC affiliate at the time, and that was the lowest-rated news program in the city at that time. So it was uh WLWT, and that's actually where he created the signature line, take care of yourself and each other. And then after being there for two years, he was uh went from commentator to uh he went from political reporter and commentator to anchor, and after two years, they were the number one um number one news program in the city. So he was the anchor for five years, winning 10 local Emmy Awards, and he was allowed to give a commentary called The Final Thought at the end of every news program, which is a little bit unusual that the anchor would get to go on and give a commentary.

SPEAKER_08 18:24

I think it was more common back then. I I remember a little bit of people kind of editorializing at the end of news shows, but yeah, you don't see that too much.

SPEAKER_01 18:32

Yeah. Well, now the whole program's editorialized, right? Every news show is just sure. Yeah. Uh but but yeah, so he did that until 1993. But in the time between 91 and 93, he actually that's where the Jerry Springer show actually started. And so in 93, he decided that the ratings were slipping at the news station. He was doing the Jerry Springer thing, and he was having to uh fly back and forth between Chicago and Cincinnati and decided it was time to step down, and he gave this little speech when he stepped down as the news anchor.

SPEAKER_04 19:11

You should know this isn't the first time I thought about leaving. I thought about it some 20 years ago when a check that would soon become part of Cincinnati folklore made me see life from the bottom. To be honest, a thought about ending it all crossed my mind. But a more reasonable alternative seemed to be: hey, how about just leaving town, running away, starting life over someplace else? And then I think it was a night or two later, Al Shottelcotty, the man who defined local television news for a generation of us, ran what he called his spotlight report entitled, Who Was Jerry Springer? You see, in political terms as well as human, here in Cincinnati, I was dead. But then, in the probably the luckiest decision I ever made, I decided, no, I'm staying put. You see, I selfishly didn't want there to be any place in America where I couldn't go, where I couldn't one day with child or grandchildren return, barred by some shame and scandal. No, if I were gonna beat it, I'd have to beat it where it happened, right here in River City. And so it became an obsession. I would withstand all the jokes, all the ridicule, I'd pretend it didn't hurt, and I would give every ounce of my being to Cincinnati. Why, in time, I was thinking you'd have to like me, or if not like me, at least respect me, and I'd run for counsel, even unendorsed, and I'd prove to you I could be the best public servant you ever had, or I'd die trying. Be it as a mayor, an anchor, or a commentator, whatever it took, I was determined to have you know that I was more than a check and a hooker on a one-night stand. But something happened along the way. Maybe it's God's way of teaching us. I don't know, but you see, in trying to prove something to you, I learned something about me. I learned that I had fallen in love with you, with Cincinnati, with you who taught me more about life and caring and forgiving, and also most importantly, giving, giving something back than I'd ever learned through all the highfalutin formal education I had previously received. And so, though surely imperfectly and perhaps too bleeding heart liberally for most, I've tried to give something back. And yet I know for what you have given me, it can't nearly be enough. For giving me a chance to come back, to have the most glorious occupations anyone could ever hope for, to share 25 years of your time, the last ten in your home, spouting off my thoughts and passions, while having the good fortune of working with the likes of Norma, a friend, a confidant, a force that kept the anchor desk steady while I drifted on the edges, and Pat, a true friend who always kept my head from getting too big, and Greg, who's hustled me once too often in golf, and all the other wonderful folks here to borrow from Nick Clooney, those you see and those you don't. No, for all this that you have given me, I can't possibly have given enough back. Which is part of the reason I have been excuse me so sad this week. Why it's so hard to say goodbye. But you've given us that wonderful thought of your wrote to me yesterday. You know how yours ended your broadcast, take care of yourself and each other? Yeah, it's a wonderful thought, alright. Certainly the right and decent way to live. But you see, I didn't make it up. You did. God bless you, and goodbye.

SPEAKER_01 22:34

It's so different than what you think of as the um, you know, king of trash TV, right?

SPEAKER_08 22:40

Yeah, ex yeah. But it is consistent with like his little final thoughts that he would have at the end of every show. It was like uh he would kind of wrap up what you just saw, and and it was almost like, oh wait, it I don't know. Whenever I used to watch his final thought, it always used to make me laugh because it was almost like uh you didn't see what you just saw, or I'm putting it trying to put a nice pretty bow on this trash that you just saw.

SPEAKER_01 23:09

Actually, Jerry Springer was not somebody I watched a whole lot of. My my sister and I used to kind of make fun of that in mid-south wrestling. We would watch those two things and and kind of poke.

SPEAKER_08 23:20

We watched them for the irony of it, but um Yeah, and that brings me to my second thing that actually really floors me. You know, sometimes when you think about the past, it it's not in proper chronological order. If you had asked me my experience with Jerry Springer, I would have said I used to come home from school and watch him and when I was, you know, 12 and 13 years old, but you just told me his show didn't start until I was 21 years old, which is kind of embarrassing for me. It started in 1991, right? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's right. Right. So I thought it was something I watched when I was like, you know, a a kid. I was a grown-ass man watching that trash.

SPEAKER_01 24:06

And I was, you know, there's your there's your scandal and your brand.

SPEAKER_08 24:12

I was actually married in 1993 and and still watching that show. It's really funny that I would have just assumed it was something I watched when I was a kid. And I I used to watch shows like Morton Downey Jr.

SPEAKER_01 24:25

Yeah, you remember that guy?

SPEAKER_08 24:26

Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah, and and that was much earlier, that was probably 10 years earlier. So I just kind of lumped him together. But man, 21 when that show started.

SPEAKER_01 24:37

So so here's the thing, though. If you started watching it in in in 91, you actually weren't watching trash TV yet because his first guests included Oliver North, Jesse Jackson. They talked about things like homelessness, guns, politics.

SPEAKER_08 24:51

And I actually did watch it then and I liked it then.

SPEAKER_01 24:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 24:54

But what age was I when I bought that VHS tape? Was I 25?

SPEAKER_01 25:02

So in 94, 94 is when they flipped the flipped the script. And basically they they had this euphemism called targeting the youth market, and they decided to target the youth market and the show, he got a new producer, um, because the show wasn't rating very well, you know, initially. That nobody was. I was watching it. Well, and think about it, think about it. Um, I think that's around the time when he came on, is around the time when Phil Donahue retired. So I think they were looking for somebody to replace Donahue. And I feel like I don't know this for a fact, but I feel like Donahue's content got trashier as he went on. Do you think that's fair?

SPEAKER_08 25:38

I don't know. I I used to want, yeah, probably, because because uh Oprah's did the opposite. Remember that? So Oprah started as more sensational and got more serious. In fact, it there was you know jokes and memes of the day about then about oh, you saw that on Oprah, meaning it was kind of trashy. It flipped the opposite way. Maybe they were taking a mantle from Oprah when she cleaned up her act.

SPEAKER_01 26:05

A lot of this uh research I did was through OK magazine. Um two two things two things happened. Uh I think that's a German magazine. Okay, is uh two two things happened. One, I heard a podcast on This American Life, they had a uh uh sort of a throwback to something they had done with Jerry Springer 20 years before. They kind of revamped that episode right after he died. And then number two, I saw that okay magazine in the airport and bought it, and I was like, okay, I gotta do Jerry Springer. But but there's some pictures in there of him. I guess Oprah held a sort of summit of the hosts of different talk shows, and there's a great picture of all of them together. As a matter of fact, do you want to do you want to take a guess uh how many you can name? How many of the talk shows from back in the day you can name? Yeah, yeah. So how many are in the picture? Hold on. I got one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven. Wow, that's a lot. And I watched excluding excluding Springer. So 12 was Springer. I bet I watched a lot of those too.

SPEAKER_08 27:13

So okay, but you said Morton Downey Jr., Sally Jesse Raphael. Nice. There's two. Um, let's see. Um, what was the one? Jenny Jones?

SPEAKER_01 27:24

Jenny Jones, yes. That's on the list. So I'm gonna I'm gonna give you two more um because Oprah is one of them, so that's four, including Jenny Jones. And then Donahue is considered one of them. So that's five.

SPEAKER_08 27:35

Yeah, I would have I would have probably said him too. I watched all these. I watched all of these.

SPEAKER_01 27:39

So you're missing you're missing a couple of really obvious ones. Montel Williams. Yes. Um, come on. Another Jerry. Jerry Rivers. Oh, Raldo.

SPEAKER_08 27:55

Geraldo Rivera.

SPEAKER_01 27:56

Yes.

SPEAKER_08 27:57

I forgot he had an afternoon.

SPEAKER_01 27:58

What do you mean you forgot? He he was oh man, he was the king, I believe.

SPEAKER_08 28:02

Even more than he's had so many incarnations.

SPEAKER_01 28:05

Yeah, yeah. Okay. Uh so you've been a couple more. Um, wow. She was an actress. Ricky Lake. Uh, and then Maury Povich.

SPEAKER_08 28:18

Oh, Maury. I uh yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:20

Rosie O'Donnell? Yeah. Well, that was a little later, wasn't it? This according to OK Magazine, these were his uh peers. And then a guy named Steve Wilkes. Now, do you know who Steve Wilkes was?

SPEAKER_08 28:32

Steve Wilkes was like the bouncer of the Jerry Springer show. He was the stage manager, but I don't think he did a lot of stage managing. He was just the bouncer.

SPEAKER_01 28:42

He was a former cop, you know, he was a former Chicago cop, and he got hired, and he actually um said that he thought it was gonna be just a short-term thing to be the um bouncer on the show, and he ended up having his own show. Like he he got he got popular and was able to have his own show.

SPEAKER_08 28:59

So let's You really are in my wheelhouse, though. I've I've watched all of those shows back, and I learned uh, you know, I you know, my I my fascination is with people and and human behavior, and I'm a psychologist, and um, I think it was formed by all those weirdos that used to be on that edge show. But I'm not sure they were all contemporaries. I mean, Martin Downey Jr. was early 80s, and Steve Wilco was like post-Jerry Springer.

SPEAKER_01 29:27

But but regardless, um, yeah, this okay magazine was it was a great source, although it's interesting because, for instance, that magazine says that he was not divorced. According to that magazine, he wasn't divorced as death, but several sources online said he was divorced when he died. So I don't know which is the truth. But but let's get back, we'll get back to the main part of the show. Um, I want to just give you, get us in the vibe here. For anybody who's not ever actually watched Jerry, here's a little taste.

SPEAKER_06 29:58

If you're all over life, you're a family woman, huh? That's your man. Well, then you should know what your man's doing.

SPEAKER_08 30:49

I can't see this when I'm picturing wigs going off, tops going off.

SPEAKER_01 30:54

Yeah, he he mentions um about censoring the nudity and how they could never have Trump on because his wig would have come off. Yeah, I mean, it's it's it's sad. It's it's very trashy.

SPEAKER_08 31:08

It's sad because of the clips you've played previously, and you knew that this guy had dreams of being a serious talk show host, but it was a runaway train, man. He all the things that he was trying to do weren't successful, and the things that he probably repulsed him were killing it. He was making so much money, and in his mind, I I mean, I didn't know the guy, but I'll bet you he was a kind of said, well, it's not just making me money, but it's employing a lot of people, and you know, but absolutely no, that's exactly that's exactly the take.

SPEAKER_01 31:42

He he generally, and I watched a lot of clips of him over the last couple of weeks, actually, and he was generally apologetic for the show. And and would say, though, um, that he was an actor, that it was really just something he did for entertainment purpose. He called the show chewing gum. He said it's uh not gonna it's not gonna kill you, but it certainly isn't doing you any good. But but as you said, great. That's a great in 1998. Um he was beating Oprah. He actually, so it started in '91.

SPEAKER_08 32:15

Seven years later, he was reaching eight million viewers a week, which was and and her show had become completely legitimate and groundbreaking and educational and oh well.

SPEAKER_01 32:26

No, his show was educational. I mean, let me let me read you some episode titles, and you tell me it's not educational. Uh, your secret slipped out. Mom, stop stripping. Is my boyfriend sleeping with my daughter? Homewreckers on Springer, Misbehaving Mistresses, and then part two, Mistress's attack. I got your sister pregnant. Did I marry a cheat? Lie detector results. Everyone knows but you. I slept with my daughter's man. Dirty Double Crossers, and this is where it gets really good. I'm sleeping with three sisters, stripper sex turned me straight. Prostitutes confronted, and then here's the best.

SPEAKER_08 33:13

It is kind of the country music of TV, isn't it? Uh it's it's it and and let me reiterate, I was in my mid-20s when I was watching this.

SPEAKER_01 33:22

Well, well, you must have had a lot of your hands. Oh, yeah. And married. So, so funny thing, he actually did um Jerry Springer. You mentioned country music. He appeared in a music video for Brad Paisley. It was called the Fishing Song, and it was something about she don't like me fishing, so she's my ex or something like that. So there was that, and if you can believe it, he actually released a country music album. Jerry did.

SPEAKER_08 33:50

No, I mean, I can believe it. Wasn't there something about an opera too? Do you know anything about this?

SPEAKER_01 33:56

Yes, there was an opera based on his life and his show, and it was um, it was actually started in Britain. You know, he was actually British, he was born there, and it was inspired by him. And then in New York, it performed at Carnegie Hall, and his character was portrayed by Harvey Kaitel. No kidding.

SPEAKER_08 34:18

I didn't know that. Interesting, and I'm sure it went through the whole everything, right?

SPEAKER_01 34:24

Well, apparently he went to see it, he didn't know much about it, he went to see it, and he said he was uncomfortable during most of it.

SPEAKER_08 34:33

Good. I think he should have been uncomfortable. It's an uncomfortable life that he created for himself.

SPEAKER_01 34:38

Well, you were asking earlier about his his um his sort of attitude about it, and you're absolutely right. He employed a lot of people, he made money, he had a stage, um, and he said, I'm an actor, and he separated himself from the show. He said, Quote, our show is a circus, it's plain stupid, period. That was sort of his di um take on the show. And you know, uh if in Quake's Q were wondering, or do you do you know, um, do you know if the the guests were paid?

SPEAKER_08 35:09

I would assume that most of the guests were not real people and they were just playing characters.

SPEAKER_01 35:16

Okay, so were they paid?

SPEAKER_08 35:18

So I'm sure they they would have to have been paid.

SPEAKER_01 35:20

They were actors. Okay, so you're wrong on both accounts. Um according to Jerry, and according to several sources, he said 90% of the show was absolutely true. There were some people who would come on and the show and make up stories, but most didn't. Occasionally our producers would go over the line and ask people to do things they shouldn't, but I always put a stop to that. I want the show to be honest because that's the only way it works. And the the guests were not paid. And here's the really interesting thing is Jerry actually had no idea what the episodes were going to be about. So he just had a cue card with the names of the people and some basic facts, but he didn't know the story until just like this show, right? He came on, he didn't know what was going on, and he tried to position himself as an audience member. Basically, he was in the audience just like everybody else.

SPEAKER_08 36:12

It was a runaway train, man. And he can, I think he's deluding himself when he says I was just an actor. He wasn't playing a character, it wasn't like when Stephen the Colbert rapport was obviously like a satire character that nobody could be like. He was a ringmaster, yeah. The movie you said. He was a ringmaster of a circus that was completely out of control, where the animals were eating the the uh the uh trapeze artists, and he was just sat back and watched.

SPEAKER_01 36:42

Well, there's two two funny things about what you just said. Number one, ringmaster. That was not only the name of that really bad movie that I watched or started to watch, that was also the name he gave his autobiography. So he wrote an autobiography and he named it Ringmaster, and it he it came out the same year as that movie, and he said, I can only come up with one title per year. So that was it. And then you mentioned animals being out of control. You want to know what his most according to according to OK magazine, his most controversial episode was to do with animals. It was called it was called I Married a Horse. And it was let me find it here. It was about a man named uh Mark, doesn't have his last name, uh, who basically legally married a horse. And the way the show started, they actually had to have a disclaimer to say that bestiality was illegal.

SPEAKER_08 37:41

A disclaimer, like at the beginning of the show. Yeah, yeah. Did he walk away or was the show canceled?

SPEAKER_01 37:50

So the show that's a great question. I actually don't know the answer to that. So it seems like he would have walked away and had a big speech about it. He did say eventually that um anyone could do the show. He said all you had to know was three things. You had to say, you did what? And then come on out, and we'll be right back. Those were his three lines. He said if anybody could say those three lines, anybody could do it.

SPEAKER_08 38:16

Yes, and then he would wrap it up with that stupid final thought, or he would try to like wax poetical about what we just saw.

SPEAKER_01 38:23

Well, so after after the show ended in 2018, he actually had a short run as a show called Judge Jerry, which was an arbitration-based reality court show where they actually would take uh small claims court cases and run them on the show. Um, and that lasted for two or three seasons. Steve Harvey does that now. Steve Harvey does that now. Yeah, I think there's a formula for this, honestly. Yeah, then why aren't we in this? Um well, this is step one. The third nap city is step one.

SPEAKER_08 38:54

Uh step one, apparently, is paying a check to for a hooker. So I feel like that was the beginning of all. You haven't done that yet? My goodness. I feel like that's that if if that hadn't happened, none of this other stuff could have happened because it got him into that lane.

SPEAKER_01 39:14

Yeah, yeah. He decided if if I'm gonna own the the trashiness, I'm gonna own it. If I'm gonna be in the trashy side, I'm gonna own the trashy side. Amazing. So other stuff that he uh did, he covered the US presidential election for Good Morning Britain in 2016. Um he appeared in an episode of Married with Children, and this is interesting. He was the host of a talk show uh on Married with Children. He played the host of a talk show called The Masculine Feminist, in which he advocated for women getting to participate in men's bowling night. I think I remember that.

SPEAKER_08 39:51

But you know, go back to just a second, to the covering the election on Good Morning Britain, right?

SPEAKER_09 39:56

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_08 39:56

That's him thinking they want him because he's a serious politician. But in from Britain's perspective, he is the personification of ugly America, and they need him to talk about the impending Donald Trump running for president, like that. Yeah, 2016. But he thought, oh, because of my experience with Kennedy and all no, no, no.

SPEAKER_01 40:18

No. Well, who who knows what he thought? I don't think he I think he was more self-aware than that, actually. I I don't think you've given him enough credit.

SPEAKER_08 40:25

I don't know. That's a really good I we'll never know. We'll never know. And his book wouldn't tell us either, probably.

SPEAKER_01 40:31

He was also in the musical Chicago in London, and he played Billy Flynn. Now, I'm I'm not super familiar with Chicago, the musical, but Billy Flynn was the lead. He was a lawyer, yeah. And apparently his his shtick was he could get anybody, any any woman off of any charge, whether she was guilty or not, he could, you know, have the jury say she was innocent.

SPEAKER_08 40:52

That's the male lead of that show. I bet it was terrible.

SPEAKER_01 40:55

Um, he also had cameo appearances in the Netflix show Happy, Roseanne, The X-Files, The Simpsons. And uh, by the way, in The Simpsons, it was a treehouse of horrors, and I thought this was pretty funny. Uh, the the episode itself was called Starship Poopers. Do you remember that? Uh, I don't remember that, but I need to watch that one. Um, he was on the Wayans Brothers show, he was on Sabrina, the Teenage Witch, he was on Space Ghost Coast to Coast. And then, do you remember this? I had forgotten about this, but I actually watched it and it was really good. It he was in Austin Powers, the spy who shagged me, and he played himself. And do you remember Dr. Evil and his son Scott are on together? Right. I watched that, and that was so funny. That was actually I had forgotten that. Yeah. Who played who played Scott Evil? Seth uh Green. 2006, he actually was on Dancing with the Stars, and he went further than he thought he would. I think he made it for like seven competitions or seven weeks before he was eliminated. But uh, the reason he did it was because he didn't know how to dance and he actually turned it down at first, but his daughter, Katie, was getting married in 2006, and he wanted to dance at her wedding, so he thought it'd be a good training for that. Interesting.

SPEAKER_08 42:12

That's uh uh that's crazy.

SPEAKER_01 42:14

Like I said, he did record a country album in 1995, and it was called Dr. Talk. Dr. Talk, and it was on Fiddlefish Records, and it was mostly country music covers. So you can find it online, it's pretty horrible. Um so one other thing that I thought was kind of interesting was he actually uh delivered the Northwestern University Law commencement in 2008, and he was pretty controversial. I think a lot of people thought they weren't taking it seriously to have Jerry Springer um deliver it, but at the end he got a standing ovation. His topic was um the ethical judgments we have to make in whatever business we go into. Interesting. That's really interesting. So um, yeah, I do I do actually have another interesting clip of him. Um this one is talking to in an interview. I don't know who the person who was interviewing him was, but he's talking about why people went on the Jerry Springer show.

SPEAKER_00 43:15

Clearly, there's more than that. Why has this show lasted for 26 years?

SPEAKER_05 43:19

Well, probably well, first it's stupid. And you know, it's got a niche. And bec and no one else kind of goes in that niche. So I think that's one of the reasons it lasts, the personality of the guests. No one's watching because of me. They're watching because the stories are crazy and the and and the people are uh outrageous. I mean, look at this.

SPEAKER_00 43:39

I think that's why you you've called your show chewing gum. You say it won't hurt you, but it's also not going to save the world. Is there anything, uh, Jerry, that you won't allow in your show? You showed you know clan members, you've had little people wrestling in slime, women pretending to be men, fights. I mean, is there a line you won't cross?

SPEAKER_05 43:57

Um well, the show is no censorship. So no, we'll bleep out the bad language. We'll, you know, cover up uh the nudity or whatever.

SPEAKER_00 44:05

But there's nothing where you would say, you know, we've had on our show.

SPEAKER_05 44:09

Look, when our show started, well, Bert Jabrow was the uh executive producer, who by the way was Sally Jesser Raphael's producer, he's the one that kind of found me and said, do a talk show. When it started, we were a serious show. And uh, but then all of a sudden it started going crazy. And when Universal bought us, they said, from now on only crazy. But there's no censorship. And look, we've had on our show neo-Nazis, and my family was exterminated by the Nazis. So if I can do a show where I'm okay that they're on, then what am I going to say no to?

SPEAKER_00 44:42

But why do you think people come on your show?

SPEAKER_05 44:44

I don't know. Yeah. You know what? Because I always say my closing prayer for everyone is may you never be on my show. Oh no. Um I I think if I had a guest, okay, it's for so many of our guests, no one ever asks them a question. They live their whole their lives. They don't have kids who ask them their opinion. They don't have parents who ask their opinion, they're not in a job where their opinion is valued. It's like for one day in their life, people are really paying attention. They're talking about something that's important to them. We take it for granted. Every day of your life, someone asks, hey, what do you think? Nice job. So many of these people, no, they don't they don't come out to be famous. They don't even use their name.

SPEAKER_00 45:30

Jerry, they come out and sometimes you can't even get a word out before somebody's knocking you in the head with a chair. I mean, I'm no expert, but it doesn't seem like that's the way to solve a problem.

SPEAKER_05 45:38

Well, no, I I always I'm not allowed to know what the show's about.

SPEAKER_00 45:43

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 45:43

Okay. They hand me a card with just the names of the guests, and I'm supposed to ask questions that you would ask sitting at home and then make jokes. That's all. But I'm never allowed to know the subject matter. But when they come on, they're not coming on to be famous. I mean, they don't even use their real names in most cases. And they wear disguises, though the Whigs do come off, which by the way is why we don't have Trump. He won't come on because he doesn't want to see it. Sorry.

SPEAKER_08 46:07

I think the reason those people come on the show is the same reason he's on the show. Is because they're getting attention. And they're uh and so I guess to the extent that it he's I don't think it's anything like uh people are are caring about these people, but I think it is the attention aspect of it. And they get to be I mean it's it's like being on a wrestling uh being on a wrestling ring or something. People are chanting and it's just um why not?

SPEAKER_01 46:38

Any attention is is is good attention, like even bad attention is good attention.

SPEAKER_08 46:43

I personally don't subscribe to that, but I would think that uh somebody who goes on the show called I Married a Horse is not a lot different than somebody who writes a check to a prostitute and realizes that the whole world loves him for it.

SPEAKER_01 46:57

You know? Well, I do think that he really compartmentalized his life. You know, I think that was the key to how he did it was I'm not a bad person. As a matter of fact, he actually had a lot of interest in politics. He wanted to get back into politics. He just felt like by the time the show had run its course, he thought he was too old.

SPEAKER_08 47:20

I just think it's a little I don't know, the word that comes to mind is irresponsible, but maybe that's not the right word to pedal this stuff and then distance yourself at the same time and say, you know, I'm not allowed to even know what's on the show. My people just put this thing together, and next thing you know, wigs are coming off and tops are flying off, and people are chanting my name. It's a little disingenuous. And you know, we we usually end this show talking about legacy, and in this in this case, the legacy, like, is it a legacy or a consequence? Like he like the things changed, right? Like, like it's a it's an icon of infamy, is what the the uh the headline of that magazine says. I mean, once you start pushing those boundaries, they never come back, right? And so Jerry Springer begets you know this and that, and next thing you know, you end up with where we're at now.

SPEAKER_01 48:19

I tried to find a modern talk show, afternoon talk show host, like somebody who's doing the same thing they were doing, all the people we mentioned earlier, all his contemporaries at that time, and they don't really exist anymore. That format is gone. There are morning talk shows, you know, there's like Good Morning America, and there's uh The View, and but they're more of a news bent. Um, but the single person afternoon talk show, there's not a lot. Um, Drew Barrymore was like the closest I could come to find somebody those are more than chat shows.

SPEAKER_08 48:55

Yeah, Joe Drew Barrymore and Jennifer Hudson and yeah uh you know Ellen DeGeneres just uh finished up. Those those were more chat shows, right? But you look at what is going on on news channels now, it's the same kind of garbage, but brawling as right, but it's packaged as political theater now, and now you see politicians getting in the mud using the same kind of attitude and language and um disrespect for everyone. But now it's part of our political discourse, and that's I mean, that's that's I'm not saying he caused it, but he you know, he definitely didn't put things in the correct direction, right?

SPEAKER_01 49:39

Okay, but do you do you hold yourself slightly accountable for watching him regularly?

SPEAKER_08 49:46

Well, first of all, I have quibble with the word regularly, but I didn't buy that VHS.

SPEAKER_01 49:52

He bought the VHS, you said you came home you came home from school before he was even on on the air and watched him every day, is what I heard you say a little while ago. Five years after I graduated high school.

SPEAKER_08 50:03

Um I don't I mean, I don't know. I mean, this is where I'd pull a Jerry Springer and say that I was not part of it. I wasn't um part of that, I was just observing it. Yeah, I guess we're all to blame for that, you know.

SPEAKER_01 50:16

But you were you were a you were part of the Nielsen ratings or part of the statistics that allowed him to have advertisers and allowed him to make money and continue, you know, you were part of the success of that show by turning it on and watching it.

SPEAKER_08 50:31

I suppose. Um, but um because there had never been anything like it before. So I would not be interested in anything like that now, right?

SPEAKER_01 50:42

Because it was unique, that was what you liked about it.

SPEAKER_08 50:45

It's just the first time you'd seen anything like that. And that's um, I mean, we're all drawn to like novelty, probably, right? Do you feel like it was after a while? Those shows are all the same, though. They are they are. Oh, they're very formulaic. I don't understand people that watch Maury Povich every day because it's the same show every day. Yeah, you know, and and so that I get a little uh weary of of that probably. And those shows do all kind of run together. It's not like I watched a lot of them, but I tell you the truth, I probably watched them more when he was like serious.

SPEAKER_01 51:18

Well, so he did um at the end of his life, you know. As I said, he was married to Mickey Velton from 1973. And again, some sources said they divorced in '94. Others said they were still married when he died. Not sure. He has a daughter named Katie. Uh, she was born in 76, and she had some um physical problems. She was born without nasal passages and had to have surgery uh at birth. She was blind and deaf in one ear, uh, had had a lot of physical issues, but she ended up becoming a teacher, getting married, having a son, and she said, My father taught me that if you give your kids wings, they will fly.

SPEAKER_08 51:58

I I go back to what I was saying before about he was a ringmaster and he was a conductor of a runaway train, you know. I don't think he set out to do any of this, and I think he was he he felt the need to kind of always talk about how he was embarrassed by it and not and didn't want to own anything of it, but that was the life he carved for himself, you know. So thanks, Jerry, for screwing up the the the country. I don't know if we should put that much blame on him, but I do feel like uh there's kind of a before and after of his of his show. Maybe I'm giving it too much.

SPEAKER_01 52:31

Would would would you have wanted to let your son watch Jerry Springer? Let's say Jerry Springer was still on the air, still alive and still on the air, and uh your son came home from school and turned it on TV. What would your reaction be? I'd probably sit down and watch it with him. Well, so there's a great uh little last um audio clip I want to play here. It's kind of prophetic from his podcast, and this was recorded maybe two years ago, so take a listen.

SPEAKER_05 53:04

I'd like to take this opportunity to frankly uh apologize for everything I've ever done in television. I am so sorry. I have ruined the culture, and um, you know, I just hope hell isn't that hot. I burn real easy, I'm very light-complexed. I hope you all pray for me because if I get to heaven, you're all going. You know, think about it. You're all going. So take care of yourself and each other, and may you never ever be on my show.

SPEAKER_07 53:34

I like it. I like it. That's great. That's great.

SPEAKER_01 53:38

Well, uh, Alex, I hope you enjoyed uh this episode of Dirt Knap City with one of its newest residents. And I hope everybody in Dirt Knap City is is sort of welcoming Jerry down there and he's settling in.

SPEAKER_08 53:50

Yeah, I think he's he's looking for uh he's he's probably uh trying to give advice. He's probably making long speeches, he's probably uh trying to uh find um some some hope in in all the different uh he's probably checking on evil can evil, that's for sure. Um those two guys are kindred spirits. Maybe him and Evil Kinevil and P. T. Barnum have uh have a side project going.

SPEAKER_01 54:16

They have a they have a podcast in Dirt Cap City. All right, man. Well, well, thank you for taking the time. Thank you. And uh I'm glad you like it. And and you know, was my prediction that this was in your wheelhouse uh correct?

SPEAKER_08 54:28

It would have been better if you told me it happened in the 80s, though. The fact that uh happened in the 90s is still kind of blowing my mind.

SPEAKER_01 54:34

Yeah, yeah, that you watched the show when you were out of school um and married. I want to leave you with something um that I think you'll enjoy for the outro. So thanks everybody for tuning in, and uh, we'll see you next time on Dirt Knap City. Bye.